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ADiamond240sx
08-05-2005, 04:15 PM
Has anyone seen a built non-turbo KA ? If so, what were the numbers and what was doen to produce the extra power ...

I'm thinking that because my motor is gonna give in a year or so that I might just build a built motor and then maybe do a light turbo a few years later.

So I know of :
bored/10:1 compression pistons
248 intake / 248 exhaust cams

What else can I do to make it screem without going turbo?

ameenIT
08-05-2005, 04:25 PM
bascially going N/A is too costly and the performance it will yeild is much less then a turbo.. i know it sounds odd.. but turbo is much cheaper...

i think the most you can push out of the KA is 180RWHP before spending ALOT of money..

KoukiKA240sx
08-05-2005, 04:31 PM
yea with basic bolt ons and tuning ive seen 180-190, you can rais compression and go with some GSX ITBS P/P the head for all motor cams ect and whatnot and ive seen around 220-230rwhp. Thats pretty damn good NA but the KA just isnt a honda motor.
~Sam

FbodTrek
08-05-2005, 04:35 PM
Nitrous.
These motors seem to like juicy juice in my experience.
If you don't want to go that route, a set of good aftermarket cams (the 248/248 setup is good too...but lacks in certain areas). FULL bolt-ons help alot in my experience as well (reguardless of what model you have). I/H/E and I hear good things about the crank pulley too. Add the cams to that combo, have your head professionally reworked at a shop that KNOWS The KADE head. A GOOD head job can net you 20-30 hp with the right cam combo and compression, possibly even have the chambers re-worked with cloverheads. With a compression between10.5-11:1, you should be able to put 200 to the wheels with good head work adn a set of decent cams. Save the tuning or ECU upgrades for the end, people seem to be able to squeeze a decent amount of power out of these motors with a slight fuel curve adjustment and some good work to the timing curve(more-so with the timing actually). That should get you started...for about 2K you can have an all-motor KADE that will outrun lightly modded SR powered cars... but that really isn't the point....

ADiamond240sx
08-05-2005, 04:38 PM
I'm not gonna go turbo until I have a more sturdy bottom end ...

so if all I'm looking for is around 230hp and I have to rebuild motor anyway woul it be worth it to try and them maybe go turbo a few years later?

ADiamond240sx
08-05-2005, 04:41 PM
Nitrous.
These motors seem to like juicy juice in my experience.
If you don't want to go that route, a set of good aftermarket cams (the 248/248 setup is good too...but lacks in certain areas). FULL bolt-ons help alot in my experience as well (reguardless of what model you have). I/H/E and I hear good things about the crank pulley too. Add the cams to that combo, have your head professionally reworked at a shop that KNOWS The KADE head. A GOOD head job can net you 20-30 hp with the right cam combo and compression, possibly even have the chambers re-worked with cloverheads. With a compression between10.5-11:1, you should be able to put 200 to the wheels with good head work adn a set of decent cams. Save the tuning or ECU upgrades for the end, people seem to be able to squeeze a decent amount of power out of these motors with a slight fuel curve adjustment and some good work to the timing curve(more-so with the timing actually). That should get you started...for about 2K you can have an all-motor KADE that will outrun lightly modded SR powered cars... but that really isn't the point....

I like that 2k thing you have in there .. would this be me building it or someone else?

s14blacktop
08-05-2005, 04:56 PM
the highest ive seen is 195 to the wheels itbs, higher cr, and all that shit..

to me it wouldnt be worth spending like 4 gs on a 200 hp motor (rebuilt)...

ADiamond240sx
08-05-2005, 05:03 PM
the highest ive seen is 195 to the wheels itbs, higher cr, and all that shit..

to me it wouldnt be worth spending like 4 gs on a 200 hp motor (rebuilt)...

yeah, but if ya gotta re-build anyway why not?

Oni-San
08-05-2005, 05:33 PM
Thats what I as thinking at first, but I'd rather just rebuild my KA and run low boost :) Most likely I will be going with the Greddy Kit if I can find a good price

2blue240
08-05-2005, 05:41 PM
while going full n/a may be costly it would be different. yes its possible to spend upwards of 4k a full blown n/a KA. heres some mods u could do and yeild some good results.

port/polish head
248/248 cams (2 91 exhaust cams)
header of your choice
intake of your choice
ASP crank pully
sohc pistons ( ive heard it will raise your compression)
good n/a exhause (hks hi-power n/a)
solid motor mounts
kinfe edge the crank
fidanza flywheel
solid clutch

as a last resort add a small shot of nitrous trust me the motor can take it.

ameenIT
08-05-2005, 05:52 PM
yeah, but if ya gotta re-build anyway why not?



because most of the stuff you use for an N/A power car you will end up throwing out when you go turbo...

ADiamond240sx
08-05-2005, 05:54 PM
because most of the stuff you use for an N/A power car you will end up throwing out when you go turbo...

such as ? What if I go with stock piston size and upgrade all the other stuff ... would it be worth it then ??

And is there a way to run 10.5:1 pistons and still do turbo safly?

ameenIT
08-05-2005, 06:15 PM
yes.. but your limiting the amount of boost you can run safely without the use of extensive tuning...

ADiamond240sx
08-05-2005, 06:31 PM
yes.. but your limiting the amount of boost you can run safely without the use of extensive tuning...

yes to both or just one?

ameenIT
08-05-2005, 06:35 PM
oops sorry.. let me answer your question fully...

yes you can run 10.5:1 compression with turbo but your limiting the amount of boost you can run safely without the use of extensive tuning...

go with stock piston upgrade and go turbo..

when you go N/A then turbo you have to get rid of your aftermarket intake and header... i guess thats about it depending on how extensive you went with modding your N/A beast

ADiamond240sx
08-05-2005, 06:49 PM
oops sorry.. let me answer your question fully...

yes you can run 10.5:1 compression with turbo but your limiting the amount of boost you can run safely without the use of extensive tuning...

go with stock piston upgrade and go turbo..

when you go N/A then turbo you have to get rid of your aftermarket intake and header... i guess thats about it depending on how extensive you went with modding your N/A beast

but if I have it profesional tuned I shouldn't worry and I would still be able to run 7-10lbs of boost with 10.5:1 compression?

FbodTrek
08-05-2005, 07:38 PM
but if I have it profesional tuned I shouldn't worry and I would still be able to run 7-10lbs of boost with 10.5:1 compression?
Yeah, but it'll damn near require a standalone, which equals $$$$. If you like the sound of decent power for 2000 bucks, I say go turbo if all you're looking for is power and have that kind of initial budget. A pieced together kit should run between 1000-1500 bux, that's having some goof like me install the turbo manifold, and run the plumbing for you. Then you take it to someone to get it tuned decently enough that you won't lean out :nono . The hardware install is pretty easy, if you use the right downpipe and shit, it will bolt up to stock stuff without any problem. You can do a "suck and blow" setup with your existing MAF, but you'll be limitied on the amount of boost you can run (assuming you're running stock injectors). MAF cars are pretty easy to "Home Brew" a turbo kit for, they are alot more forgiving in the ECU department (when a MAP sensor sees positive pressure and isn't setup for it, all hell breaks loose...). You can suck said air through a MAF and your computer will compensate the air with extra fuel to an extent (you'll want more boost though, and eventually you'll need a better setup). If you are just drag racign on a budget, with big plans for the future, just spray your stock motor. Just get a nice exhaust and save up/scavange for your turbo goodies.

FbodTrek
08-05-2005, 07:40 PM
Oh, and if anyone has a comment on the "suck and blow", come see me after class ;)

ADiamond240sx
08-05-2005, 07:45 PM
Yeah, but it'll damn near require a standalone, which equals $$$$. If you like the sound of decent power for 2000 bucks, I say go turbo if all you're looking for is power and have that kind of initial budget. A pieced together kit should run between 1000-1500 bux, that's having some goof like me install the turbo manifold, and run the plumbing for you. Then you take it to someone to get it tuned decently enough that you won't lean out :nono . The hardware install is pretty easy, if you use the right downpipe and shit, it will bolt up to stock stuff without any problem. You can do a "suck and blow" setup with your existing MAF, but you'll be limitied on the amount of boost you can run (assuming you're running stock injectors). MAF cars are pretty easy to "Home Brew" a turbo kit for, they are alot more forgiving in the ECU department (when a MAP sensor sees positive pressure and isn't setup for it, all hell breaks loose...). You can suck said air through a MAF and your computer will compensate the air with extra fuel to an extent (you'll want more boost though, and eventually you'll need a better setup). If you are just drag racign on a budget, with big plans for the future, just spray your stock motor. Just get a nice exhaust and save up/scavange for your turbo goodies.

but if I'm planning on using something like and AEM standalone it would be ok?

ADiamond240sx
08-05-2005, 07:47 PM
Yeah, but it'll damn near require a standalone, which equals $$$$. If you like the sound of decent power for 2000 bucks, I say go turbo if all you're looking for is power and have that kind of initial budget. A pieced together kit should run between 1000-1500 bux, that's having some goof like me install the turbo manifold, and run the plumbing for you. Then you take it to someone to get it tuned decently enough that you won't lean out :nono . The hardware install is pretty easy, if you use the right downpipe and shit, it will bolt up to stock stuff without any problem. You can do a "suck and blow" setup with your existing MAF, but you'll be limitied on the amount of boost you can run (assuming you're running stock injectors). MAF cars are pretty easy to "Home Brew" a turbo kit for, they are alot more forgiving in the ECU department (when a MAP sensor sees positive pressure and isn't setup for it, all hell breaks loose...). You can suck said air through a MAF and your computer will compensate the air with extra fuel to an extent (you'll want more boost though, and eventually you'll need a better setup). If you are just drag racign on a budget, with big plans for the future, just spray your stock motor. Just get a nice exhaust and save up/scavange for your turbo goodies.

so could you build such a beast?

FbodTrek
08-05-2005, 07:56 PM
Perhaps....but then so could (and have) others. :) I'm really the wrong guy to ask honestly. I know HOW it's done, but then I don't ahve one so I can't milk a cow if I never touched the udders. BUT< if you got some nitrous oxide questions....I'm your guy :D

ADiamond240sx
08-05-2005, 09:01 PM
oh well, it was worth asking

2B4U
08-06-2005, 02:18 PM
Higher compression also means premium fuel - higher octane.
You can turbo the factory KA as long as you keep the boost within range and still get 230HP. Many kits out there for that purpose.
The stock KA is cheap to replace and guys are running stock motor after motor with a turbo set at 8 lbs.

ameenIT
08-06-2005, 02:42 PM
Oh, and if anyone has a comment on the "suck and blow", come see me after class ;)


will do...

crzycav86
08-06-2005, 02:50 PM
If you wanna go NA, go NA. If you want turbo, do turbo.

Turbo will be a whole lot cheaper if you want more than 180 whp.

Don't build a car for NA, and then slap on a turbo. You don't want 10.5:1 compression on a turbo motor. Even the best of tuners aren't miracle workers. Show me one turbo car with 10.5:1 cr, and I'll paypal you $1..

By the way, if you go NA, there's a how-to on NICO to make ITB. It is badass: http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=124737

Good luck with whichever route you wanna take. :)

crzycav86
08-06-2005, 02:56 PM
Higher compression also means premium fuel - higher octane.
You can turbo the factory KA as long as you keep the boost within range and still get 230HP. Many kits out there for that purpose.
The stock KA is cheap to replace and guys are running stock motor after motor with a turbo set at 8 lbs.

Turbo = higher octane. A guy on NICO blew his motor on a single pull because some dude filled it with 87 octane. I don't think it was very much boost either... like 10 psi.

I believe you can safely have a 350hp kat on the stock block as long as you have a good tune, and a properly sized turbo. But yeah, 230hp is good enough for the majority as a basic kit. Not to mention you need to upgrade with more expensive parts to squeeze out more power, and that adds to the cost of the kit. :)

And yeah, I agree that the ka is cheap to replace, but I don't see why guys are blowing motors at 8 psi. :dunno If I blow my motor soon, I'm gonna :bawl hehehe

ADiamond240sx
08-06-2005, 03:11 PM
Turbo = higher octane. A guy on NICO blew his motor on a single pull because some dude filled it with 87 octane. I don't think it was very much boost either... like 10 psi.

I believe you can safely have a 350hp kat on the stock block as long as you have a good tune, and a properly sized turbo. But yeah, 230hp is good enough for the majority as a basic kit. Not to mention you need to upgrade with more expensive parts to squeeze out more power, and that adds to the cost of the kit. :)

And yeah, I agree that the ka is cheap to replace, but I don't see why guys are blowing motors at 8 psi. :dunno If I blow my motor soon, I'm gonna :bawl hehehe


If you don't mind me asking, how much did the turbo project cost after it was all said and done?

crzycav86
08-06-2005, 10:26 PM
z31 turbo $110
jgs log manifold $120
oil lines $90
starion FMIC: $110
piping for IC, downpipe, exhaust: $200
bosch bov $10
sr injectors $100
safc2: $220
lm-1 wideband: $350(actually it was a gift, but won't be necessary for all)
sunpro boost gauge $25
air filter $10
3in. cat $35
miscellaneous stuff: $100

So it turned out to be $1500. It would probably have been $1250 or so if I were to have taken it to get tuned at a shop instead getting the wideband..

crzycav86
08-06-2005, 10:27 PM
...oh yeah, and add whatever the price of a new clutch is. I'm still running the stocker for now. :bawl

datboibrad
08-07-2005, 07:37 AM
ok this thread makes me laugh. personaly after dealing with NA motors for a long time. there a few things you guys are more or less missing out on. first off if you want to go NA with nissan the KA is probly the worst motor. IMO i would get one of the NA SR motors and find a set of the Gti-R(i could be wrong) factory ITB's. the extra .4 lts on the KA wont allow you to rev as high as you would need to to take full advantage of the power band your going to be ripping threw. also 230 na whp is alot faster then 230 turbo whp no matter what it is.

Also as far as showing you a car that runs turbo over 10.5:1 its been done thousands of times. maybe not with nissans but hell turbo itr's are doing it all day. also a guy from the honda forumsis running a gsr on 11.5:1 compression with ITB's and turbo so go figure on that one. anything is possible if you can tune and recognize knock. also the car was tuned with just a chipped ecu, no baller ass ems :p

All in all an NA 240 can be done but for the money the only justification anyone could find in it would be to just stand out from the crowd, but you will look like a weirdo in the process. but most certainly different :cheers

crzycav86
08-07-2005, 09:54 AM
How much boost were those high compression turbo motors using? And more importantly, was it pump gas only w/o alcohol injection?

ADiamond240sx
08-07-2005, 07:51 PM
How much boost were those high compression turbo motors using? And more importantly, was it pump gas only w/o alcohol injection?


+1

And if you have to rebuild anyway why not do it with more power ....

FbodTrek
08-08-2005, 02:07 AM
turbo honda preludes :) stock motors at 7 psi last about 20K miles :p
If someone can tell me the formula for a streetable 200whp N/A KA24DE, I want it. I'll stick some dope to that 200 hp, and race that sucker :)

datboibrad
08-08-2005, 10:39 PM
turbo honda preludes :) stock motors at 7 psi last about 20K miles :p
If someone can tell me the formula for a streetable 200whp N/A KA24DE, I want it. I'll stick some dope to that 200 hp, and race that sucker :)
it depends. for instance you coul boost about 7-10 lbs on a gsr on stock compression only problem is that the lbock cant stand over 310 for long. now if you where to replace the internals with forged but keep it at the same compression then its all gravy. with the right turbo i/e sc-61 or sc-63 it will make about 400-500 on as little as 16-19 lbs of boost. to bad its fwd :bawl

ADiamond240sx
08-09-2005, 10:34 PM
it depends. for instance you coul boost about 7-10 lbs on a gsr on stock compression only problem is that the lbock cant stand over 310 for long. now if you where to replace the internals with forged but keep it at the same compression then its all gravy. with the right turbo i/e sc-61 or sc-63 it will make about 400-500 on as little as 16-19 lbs of boost. to bad its fwd :bawl


but we're not talking about hondas and GSRs .... we're talking about 240s

crzycav86
08-09-2005, 10:42 PM
but we're not talking about hondas and GSRs .... we're talking about 240s

Well, I did ask about high compression ratio turbo motors. But yeah, I still say that high compression and turbo don't mix. Isn't that what the original posts asked about?

ADiamond240sx
08-09-2005, 10:57 PM
Well, I did ask about high compression ratio turbo motors. But yeah, I still say that high compression and turbo don't mix. Isn't that what the original posts asked about?

Yeah, ....but the example he was giving was with factory high compression, my question is what if you build forged piston higher than stock compression and then turbo ... along with good tune. Has it been done? Can it be done and last for 100K miles? Inquiring minds want to know ... or just me.

datboibrad
08-10-2005, 01:59 AM
hell the ka/sr motors are in some ways designed alot better then honda motors. lets say for instance the heads. the angle'd ports found ont he 240's intake side are badass. for years tuners have tried to copy the angle because it makes the most power since it has no angle for the air to travel to enter the combustion chamber. although the intake manifold sucks ass because of all the bends but itbs > greddy > stock. now what can honda do to make up for that? vtec. plain and simple. you gotta remember that hondas, even though they have hi output versions they are still designed to be emission based vechicles.

honestly i bet if i could afford/have time to build a fwd sentra or 200sx with a NA sr20 it would own half the NA hondas you see running around hands down :rolleyes

as far as turbo on stock compression on built internals im sure a KA would do just fine with some real fuel management. hell the block is fuckin iron and closed deck (i could be wrong) it just sucks that the displacement is so large causing it to lack the revability of a good power band and at the same time large enough to provide a badass touqre curve.

Voodoo
08-10-2005, 07:14 AM
Yeah, ....but the example he was giving was with factory high compression, my question is what if you build forged piston higher than stock compression and then turbo ... along with good tune. Has it been done? Can it be done and last for 100K miles? Inquiring minds want to know ... or just me.


You can do pretty much anything you want, as long as you keep the A/F ratio from getting to lean.

Lean makes things go boom.

datboibrad
08-10-2005, 10:49 AM
You can do pretty much anything you want, as long as you keep the A/F ratio from getting to lean.

Lean makes things go boom.
agreed

FbodTrek
08-10-2005, 02:04 PM
You can do pretty much anything you want, as long as you keep the A/F ratio from getting to lean.

Lean makes things go boom.
DOn't forget keeping that pre-ignition in check...timing computers, ignition brains...either will handle it nicely.

Voodoo
08-10-2005, 02:10 PM
DOn't forget keeping that pre-ignition in check...timing computers, ignition brains...either will handle it nicely.


Well, true that too...

But I would think that A/F Ratio, Detonation and Pre-ignition are your 3 biggest problems.

The Timing Computers and Ignition brains all all into the basic system build.

I would say that A/F Ratio, Detonation and Pre-ignition are the biggest "Free Variables" that can pop up and get you when one least expects it! LOL

A plugged fuel filter can throw off the A/F Ratio and send your turbo or High compression motor to Vahala... :eyecrazy

crzycav86
08-10-2005, 02:40 PM
Well, a too lean a/f is one of the causes detonation... as is a spark timing that's too advanced, and also high compression ratio with too low octane gas. All of these contribute to an increase of heat(and thus, pressure). Turbo cars add extra fuel under boost to keep the combustion temps down. You also retard timing and lower CR to keep pressure down. And high octane gas is more resistant to to being ignited(which helps all-around).

FbodTrek
08-10-2005, 03:36 PM
Well, a too lean a/f is one of the causes detonation... as is a spark timing that's too advanced, and also high compression ratio with too low octane gas. All of these contribute to an increase of heat(and thus, pressure). Turbo cars add extra fuel under boost to keep the combustion temps down. You also retard timing and lower CR to keep pressure down. And high octane gas is more resistant to to being ignited(which helps all-around).
Yes, but don't forget the condition and shape of your combustion chambers...
A sharp edge, carbon flake...both can be "hot spots" that continue to glow after the sparkplug has been fired, adn provide a source of Air/Fuel ignition when the plug isn't firing. It's alomst required that the chambers be re-worked when running high boost, high compression or nitrous oxide in large amounts. If you ever pull your head for some reason, even if just to replace a blown gasket, ALWAYS polish and deburr the combustion chamber even if you're leaving the motor stock. It'll add years to the life of the engine, seriously. If you are doing a tubo build up on the bottom end, DO NOT NEGLECT the HEAD!!! Putting a stock chamberd head on a turbo motor is idiotic. an hour of your time with a die grinder can save your motor, and even allow you to run more boost/spray/compression. ANybody that thinks otherwise is smoking crack.

datboibrad
08-10-2005, 05:35 PM
Yes, but don't forget the condition and shape of your combustion chambers...
A sharp edge, carbon flake...both can be "hot spots" that continue to glow after the sparkplug has been fired, adn provide a source of Air/Fuel ignition when the plug isn't firing. It's alomst required that the chambers be re-worked when running high boost, high compression or nitrous oxide in large amounts. If you ever pull your head for some reason, even if just to replace a blown gasket, ALWAYS polish and deburr the combustion chamber even if you're leaving the motor stock. It'll add years to the life of the engine, seriously. If you are doing a tubo build up on the bottom end, DO NOT NEGLECT the HEAD!!! Putting a stock chamberd head on a turbo motor is idiotic. an hour of your time with a die grinder can save your motor, and even allow you to run more boost/spray/compression. ANybody that thinks otherwise is smoking crack.
also agreed. porting will do something but smoothness is key for any forced induction

ADiamond240sx
08-11-2005, 10:17 PM
so who in town does a good inexpensive head port/pollish?

Voodoo
08-12-2005, 07:23 AM
so who in town does a good inexpensive head port/pollish?


Damn good question...

my '91 head needs a Port, polish, Valve Seals....

Hell.. a Rebuild...

FbodTrek
08-12-2005, 03:33 PM
Damn good question...

my '91 head needs a Port, polish, Valve Seals....

Hell.. a Rebuild...
I know a guy :p
I'll polish your chambers, but I have a good asain connection that does import heads VERY well... He's in Bellaire, but he's been in the business a LOoooonnggg time. Hell, bring me the abrasives, I'll polish it for 50 bux :redspot

ADiamond240sx
08-15-2005, 08:37 PM
I know a guy :p
I'll polish your chambers, but I have a good asain connection that does import heads VERY well... He's in Bellaire, but he's been in the business a LOoooonnggg time. Hell, bring me the abrasives, I'll polish it for 50 bux :redspot

port / polish for $50?

Voodoo
08-15-2005, 09:08 PM
Hmmm.. I'll put that on the list...

I can't even get my knob polished for $50....


What does your Asian Connection charge for a head rebuild [16 valve]?

Matt93SE
08-15-2005, 10:22 PM
Hmm, I got a set of heads off my Maxima right now.. want to have your guy work some magic on them? :)

FbodTrek
08-15-2005, 10:56 PM
No, No, POLISH only for 50, JUST the combustion chambers. There ain't a whole lot to port onthose DE heads to begin with...maybe some deburring, that's it. The shortside radius can't be changed, the venturis are already pretty straight (just knife edging them might actually cause a drop in intake velocity and atomization). the valve guide radius can be worked a bit...but still not alot of room. There isn't a whole lot of info about reworking the DE head, but it's similar in design to the Quad 4, so SOME of the same tricks can be applied. For asome REAL power, prolly have to take it to a Nissan Specialist for some chamber welding. Porting and polising alone isn't gonna yield alot of free HP.